We interviewed Abraham Anderson a while back when he had just broken the barrier and become the 100th largest mobile home park owner in the U.S. with over 600 lots. Now he’s at 2,600 lots with 43 parks purchased, and we invited him back for a new discussion on what he’s learned with that addition of another 2,000 lots purchased. We’re going to cover how he found these 43 parks, how he financed them, how he manages them, and the resulting lessons learned.
Frank Rolfe will lead the discussion and will interject his own thoughts on the various topics, as well as keep this event fast-paced and fact-filled. Abraham has built a $100+ million portfolio in only about 5 years, and here is your opportunity to learn a massive amount about the mobile home park business in only about an hour of time.
How Abraham Built a 43 Park Empire in Just 5 Years - Transcript
Frank Rolfe: Welcome to another Lecture Series Event. You may recognize the person before you is Abraham Anderson. And yes, he's been on here before, but he is such a remarkable story. We wanted to bring him back and revisit with Abraham. I think when we last left off with Abraham, he had grown from zero to 600 lots roughly. Now he is nearly at 2,600 lots as he builds his portfolio. So we thought it'd be great to have him back, find out how he has achieved what he's been doing, some of his lessons learned, et cetera. So Abraham, are you here with us?
Abraham Anderson: I am here, Frank. I appreciate you having me on.
Frank Rolfe: Well, great. Well, Abraham, let's just start from the basics for those who did not see the lecture series from a long while back. Tell everyone how you got into the business. Like you were just minding your own business. How in the world did you ever think about a mobile home park, buying it? How did that all occur?
Abraham Anderson: Sure. So from a young age, I knew I wanted to get into rentals. I had a friend whose father was a contractor and he had some apartments. And I always thought that was kind of cool, he was his friend. My friend and his parents were always doing fun things and they always seemed to be doing pretty well. And so I knew I wanted to do that. And I also had a brother, a much older brother, he's 16 years older than me. He had some rental houses as well. And I remember he told me when I was like 13, if you can save up enough money for a down payment, then the renters will pay the mortgage. So I thought that's pretty cool. So when I was 18, I started selling insurance. That's what my dad did, and I was pretty successful at that before I turned 19.
Abraham Anderson: So I was still 18. I'd saved enough money for a down payment to build four town homes. So I did that. I ended up selling those. I bought some apartments and I would go to a lot of real estate events, listen to a lot of podcasts, and I was always kind of aware of mobile home parks. But my first reaction was, "Oh, I don't wanna buy a trailer park." Just the bad stigma attached to them. I thought the tenants were dangerous and just didn't like the idea of it. But the more I got into it, and I really looked at it carefully, I realized the business model was just like a parking lot. And what really appealed to me was with apartments, what always killed me was the repair and maintenance and the tenant turnover. Like I had this 21 apartment building, I self-managed and I would work really hard to get them totally filled up. And then I'd have two people leave and then I'd have to spend eight grand in turning these units. So with mobile home parks, just hearing from people like you Frank that the average person that owns their home stays 13 years. And I was lucky to get someone to stay in my apartment for a year. That was just very appealing. So in 2018, I really focused heavily on parks and then I bought my first park in early 2019. And yet here we are.
Frank Rolfe: And let's focus on that first park Abraham. 'Cause the first one's often the most difficult. So how did you find that first park?
Abraham Anderson: So the first park was from basically a wholesaler. I went to a bunch of local real estate meetups and mostly apartment and fix and flip centric. But I knew this one guy and he is like, "Hey, I know of two parks, actually, this guy is maybe selling." And so I got the contact info from this guy, met the guy, and was able to work it out. One was a 13 space park with a single family home, and then the other was a 30 space park. And after a few meetings with the guy, we came to terms on price and everything. And then we was able to to buy both of those.
Frank Rolfe: Got it. And how did you finance it?
Abraham Anderson: This was through local banks. Almost every... Up until recently, every deal I've done has been local banks or seller financing. And I'm a big advocate for both of those. So yeah, this one was a... Just a local community bank. And I'll...
Frank Rolfe: Do you have any moment...
Abraham Anderson: I called around, I probably called. Oh man, probably eight banks and I got a couple that said they would do it and then I just compared the two to get better terms. But one tip, I think this may have come from you, was I always ask them around the front, Have you ever done a mobile home park loan? And do you have any currently? 'Cause if they said, "No, we've never done one," I wasn't even gonna waste my time because I've done that with other banks where Oh no, but we'd look at them and then they waste a month and a half and they come back and say, "Yeah, we really don't wanna do park loan." So yes.
Frank Rolfe: Did you ever have a moment on the first park in the early days where you're like, "Screw this, I hate mobile home parks, I'm just gonna give it back or something." Did you ever have a really bad day on the first park?
Abraham Anderson: That's funny that I did have... It wasn't necessarily a bad day, it was very abrupt. I was handing out leases and this one tenant... And these were like half... 30 space park is half park own half tenant own. Gave the notice this one tenant, she refused to take it. She slammed the door on my face. I was like, okay. The next day I came back and real nice like, "Hey, maybe we got off the wrong foot. I'm with the management company. Here's the new lease I had to pay," just cusses me out again and slams the door on my face. So I knocked on the door again. She comes back and I was like, okay, I was ready. I said, "Here's your non-renewal." Oh, she really flips out then. So I walk away, walked to the other side of the park. Her boyfriend comes speeding around his truck, gets out, yells in my face, "Are you the blankety blank that gave this to my girlfriend?" I said, yeah. He throws it in my face and says, "F you." So I called the police. I had a business partner with me there. He is like, "We need to get a police report, so we can go to evict these people." And police come, they were pretty cool about it. And the police officer said, "Was this the notice?" He picks it up from the ground. I said, yeah. He says, "I'm gonna go hand deliver it back to the guy."
Abraham Anderson: So he goes back to the guy, gives it to him. And so we were ready to evict the guy and the next day he was actually calling, apologizing, wanting to stay. And I was still gonna evict him because like this guy's just gonna be nothing but trouble. And I remember talking to you and you said, "No, don't evict the guy. If he's willing to sign the lease and stay and be a good tenant 'cause you're gonna spend three or four grand by the time everything's settled to get a new tenant in there." So I didn't evict the guy and he still pays to this day. He's never paid late, he signed the lease. He's not had any other issues. So, yeah. That was one of the most crazy moment I had ....
Frank Rolfe: You got his attention and he knew who the boss was. He knew who the alpha dog was in that situation.
Abraham Anderson: There you go. Yes.
Frank Rolfe: And he went and fell in line. Okay, good.
Abraham Anderson: Yes.
Frank Rolfe: So now Abraham, you've bought... How many parks are you up to now? You've bought how many so far?
Abraham Anderson: I believe it's 43.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. So we can't go through all 43 individually. We'd only have a minute on each park. So let's just put them into categories, right? So of the 43 parks you own, how many were found from a broker?
Abraham Anderson: Like two.
Frank Rolfe: Two.
Abraham Anderson: Two.
Frank Rolfe: Okay?
Abraham Anderson: Yep.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. Alright. So of the 41 remaining, how many of those parks came from cold calling?
Abraham Anderson: I would say the majority, probably 90% of what's left. So 30, 35 of those were from cold calling.
Frank Rolfe: How much from direct mail?
Abraham Anderson: Zero.
Frank Rolfe: How many from online listings?
Abraham Anderson: Zero.
Frank Rolfe: So it was really just... Your empire's been built from just cold calling and a little tiny bit of brokerage.
Abraham Anderson: Also I did some texting. I had a little bit of success with that and I've also done something that's, it's very strange that most people will not do, which is door knocking. And so my strategy with that is if I pick out an area, I'll try to contact every single owner in that area and I'll be very diligent. I may get somebody to build out the initial list, but then I'll go through every single one, try to get them on the phone to figure out, Hey, are they selling? If so, when? Or what's the story with it? And the ones I could not get on the phone, I figured nobody else can get on the phone, so I'm just gonna go and visit them. And I've actually, it's funny, definitely where you do that it's important. In the Southeast, so Tennessee, where I'm at, or surrounding states, people are really friendly. It's funny, when I used to do insurance, I did a lot of door knocking as well, and I was super shy, super nervous, 'cause I'm naturally kind of introverted and I remember the first, one of the first homes I went to and I was cold calling or door knocking for insurance.
Abraham Anderson: I'm going up to the house, I'm kind of nervous. It's like a screened-in porch, I'm about to knock and the guy sees me and he says, "Come on in. What are you selling?" So in the south, you get a pretty warm welcome most of the time. I try, I've done some door knocking up north, in the colder states and it's a very different greeting there. You're lucky you don't get shot if you knock on some of those people's doors. I went to one lady's home in Wisconsin and again, I tried to call her first. So I knock on the door, she opens the door, as soon as she realizes why I'm there, "Hey, do you wanna sell your park?" She gets super hostile. It's like "You come to my house, really? Are you insane?" And I said, "Well, I tried... " She said, "You should have called me first." And I said, "Well, I tried to call you first, you didn't answer," and she just slammed the door in my face, so.
Frank Rolfe: Got it. Okay. Well, other than that rude lady...
Abraham Anderson: Yes.
Frank Rolfe: Give people a tip of what's your first thing you say of someone? You knock on someone's door, the door opens, what do you say?
Abraham Anderson: And there's not really any secret, even with cold calling, if I'm at their house, I say, "Hey, my name's Abraham. I own some mobile home parks. Have you ever thought about selling your park?"
Frank Rolfe: Just the direct approach?
Abraham Anderson: Yeah, just totally direct, just friendly about it. And I think a key with any marketing is really listen to them. I've truly enjoyed having conversations with people. Some of them people I can... Like I've had cold callers and I've listened to them and trained some people, and I can tell they really get annoyed because some of these mom and pops they'll like to talk to you for a while and it could be nothing to do with the park. But I've bought great deals from people like that and I really enjoy listening to them. It could be a drag if you're on the phone for an hour and it feels like you've not gotten anywhere. But that's all important information. That's where the bonding takes place.
Abraham Anderson: So really, listen to the people and try to be a people person in that sense. And it's good if, 'cause it's hard to remember every conversation you had, I'll try to take notes and remember things about that person, whether it's hobbies they have or their family or just things they like so that when I reach back out to them, 'cause often it, this could be two years before they end up selling, I wanna be able to, Hey, how's, I know... You've been fishing recently? Or how's your grandson doing? Have you been to another basketball game? So it's really important to, for that bonding to be a good listener.
Frank Rolfe: And going back to the cold calling, 'cause that seems to be your, what your biggest method of finding deals. What's your favorite cold call opening? Give someone a tip on if you, ring, ring, ring, what do you say?
Abraham Anderson: Sure. So very similar like, "Hey, my name's Abraham, I own some parks. Have you thought about selling your park?" And one tip I got from you, Frank, is if they're semi-interested, a great follow up to that would be, "Well, how'd you come to own the park?" And they'll tell you, "My dad built it, I built it with my dad. Or I bought it 40 years ago and it's been good, but my kids don't want it." And so it's, there's really no secret with it. It's just, again, being friendly and follow up is a big thing. 'Cause again, I bought one park that took over two years of calling the guy every month before he finally said, "I'm ready to sell".
Frank Rolfe: And what are your forbidden hours you will not call somebody.
Abraham Anderson: So I try...
Frank Rolfe: I mean you're not gonna call someone at 4:00 in the morning obviously. So what are the hours of operation for Abraham to cold call somebody?
Abraham Anderson: I try not to call before 10:00 AM and I try not to call after 8:00 PM and that still could be kind of late, but I just, that comes back to when I was doing insurance, I found that after 8:00 your welcome wasn't quite as warmly received and before 10:00 they're not gonna be, some of them won't be awake. A lot of them wake up early mom and pops. But some of them, like me often won't be up till nine o'clock. So it gives them an hour or two to get everything ready and then I'm calling them.
Frank Rolfe: What about on weekends? Is it okay to call on weekends or not?
Abraham Anderson: I call on every day except for Sunday. Again, a lot of them spend time with their family on Sunday. So I try not to bother them on Sundays, but every other day is fair game. And in fact like this last night I was calling till 11:00 PM at night, but every time I get to 8:00, I just move over a time zone and go further west. So that's, if you're looking at other states that's another thing you can do.
Frank Rolfe: And what do you if they don't answer and they have voicemail? Do you leave a voicemail or you just hang up? What's the plan?
Abraham Anderson: If it's just a totally cold lead, I'll leave a voicemail and sometimes it's very, it's not a whole lot, but sometimes you will get calls back. If it's a more targeted one. Like I'm familiar with the park already, I know kind of the story or maybe I got a tip from somebody this person might wanna sell. I don't wanna leave a voicemail because I really want to have that conversation to see if I can make something work. But otherwise, yeah, I will leave a voicemail and if I think it's a cell phone, I'll just pull out my personal cell phone and text them as well, my information. 'Cause a lot of them will text. They have grandkids, they have kids, they text and everything else. And there's been a few that I tried calling repeatedly 'cause I'll have the notes of when I call them and everything never picked up. I send them a text and they respond and then I end up buying that park. So I try to leave voicemails and text them.
Frank Rolfe: And you don't do direct mail much for what reason? It's just a pain or you just have had so much success on the phone. You just like the phone better, or?
Abraham Anderson: Yeah, I'm definitely gonna start trying direct mail, up until this point I've had some decent deal flow, but as of right now, it's definitely gotten more difficult. I think it's part of that just because of seller's expectations haven't changed much as interest rates have doubled, but their pricing hasn't come down any. So deals have been a lot harder to find. So I'm definitely, direct mail is that and also reaching out to brokers are two of the things that I'm going to do this year. I was talking to a business partner of mine and we said that. I probably talked to more brokers in the last week than I've talked to in the last five years, just because up until now, I've not even paid any attention to brokers and they've never brought me any deals 'cause why would they? They don't know who I am, but they are getting some deals now. And so I'm really trying to broaden my funnel of deals to get some other properties.
Frank Rolfe: And of the portfolio, what would you say on average is your typical size? What does that look like?
Abraham Anderson: I would say probably around 40 to 50. I've got as small as again, 13 as big as 358 spaces, but it's especially now if it's in the area, I don't own anything else. And the minimum size I'll do is 50. And just like most people, I would prefer 100 plus, but again, those are hard to find. So I'll go down to 50 in a new market. If it's an area I already own, it just depends on the deal, probably 20 is the minimum. If I already own in that area, I'll buy that just because it's right next to something else that I have.
Frank Rolfe: Okay, and in the aggregate of the 43 approximate parks that you have, can you give people a breakdown of the states or regions you're in?
Abraham Anderson: So I'm in seven states, mostly the southeast of Tennessee, North Carolina, Kentucky, Alabama, West Virginia, and also all the way over in Montana and North Dakota. And I did have one park in Nova Scotia, Canada, but I ended up selling that just because it's very landlord hostile up there. So now I'm just in primarily red states.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. And what percent of those parks you have have private utilities like a water well, or private sewage?
Abraham Anderson: So I only have a couple water wells. I would say the majority of what I have is city water and sewer, and then on the sewer side, I have some, like, the other maybe 40% are on septic. I don't mind septic. I understand it. And as long as it's functioning properly, and you have reserve field to grass add more field lines. It doesn't really bother me. What I will not do is lagoon or a wastewater treatment plant. Unless city sewer is like right by the road, but I've never been able to get comfortable with either one of those just because of all the liability and cost involved.
Frank Rolfe: Have you had any scary stories yet on private utilities gone bad? If you had a well that's gone dry and lost water, or have you had a septic field that's oversaturated or any problem like that yet?
Abraham Anderson: Thankfully, nothing on the well side, but I only have a couple. So it's probably just a matter of time. On the septic side definitely yes. I've had fields stop functioning sometimes immediately after I buy it, which is always fun. You do all the diligence, you talk to the Health Department, you check the parks, you check the tanks, and then it still fails right after you buy it. That's then the biggest check I had to write on a septic...
Frank Rolfe: Hold on, we'll have him back. Lost you for a minute, we lost you, but go ahead.
Abraham Anderson: Sure. So the biggest check I had to ride in private utilities on septic I had probably a $20,000 bill. We had to run multiple new fields all at once. So that was not fun, but I knew that going in on that park. This is actually one of my earlier parks. It was, virtually no money down. It was 900,000, 54 space park, and I put down $5500. And that was the down payment and the payment's 5500 a month, all straight to principal. No interest. I knew going into that one, the leach fields had some issues and needed some work. So that was part of the reason why I was able to get really good seller financing terms.
Frank Rolfe: And Abraham of the massive due diligence you've done, right? 'Cause I assume you've tied things up and didn't buy them. So if you've bought 40 something parks, you've probably done diligence on, I'm going to guess 80, 90, something like that. Give people an idea of some of the craziest stuff you've seen in diligence. What kind of things of mom-and-pop created that you unlocked that you said, "Man, that's just unbelievable stuff."
Abraham Anderson: Well, I would say the first thing that comes to mind is just blatant fair housing, violations and you see those all the time. I bought a park recently in this one area and that the county is 30% Hispanic. This park's like over 100 lots. There was not a single Hispanic person in the entire park. And after it closed, everything settled, I asked the... Because someone said... They inherited from their parents. It was like, did your dad, did he not like Hispanics? He said, "Yeah, he didn't like them." I was like, "Oh, good Lord." All right. But, now that I've taken the park, we probably have already had 30 Hispanic families move in. So...
Frank Rolfe: Right.
Abraham Anderson: Fair housing violations, just private like, septic fields that the guy thought he could fix it himself when the septic goes bad, he's out there with a backhoe. I had one park I bought that it was on septic and... It is prior to when I owned it, the guy bought the park. It was on septic, city sewer comes through, he goes out there in the middle of the night with a backhoe and he legally connects his park to the city sewer. Well, they catched him.
Frank Rolfe: I see.
Abraham Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. Like, okay. So he actually pulled it off and he got it connected, but somehow, I guess they probably noticed the 30 new families that were dumping sewage in their pipes and they caught him. And I don't know exactly what his penalty was, but then they gave him a permit for it and fined him like God knows what. And so I've seen that, oh Lord, I've mom-and-pops trading, not rent, instead of rent, other things, illegal things for rent. Just every crazy thing you could think of, I've pretty much seen.
Frank Rolfe: And have you had any failed environmental reports?
Abraham Anderson: Yes, I have. I've had two of them. One, it was they were dumping foundry casings on the property, mom-and-pop was, and so it had a failed phase one got to a phase two. In fact, funny enough, and this is why I highly encourage everyone to follow your content. You always mentioned Mike Renz, and this was early on. I used a different company, they failed the phase one. They're like, oh yeah, we need 30 grand to do a phase two. So I call Mike Renz, he goes out there, he checks and he is like, this is totally fine. Get a clean phase one, save me tens of thousands of dollars. I should have just used him from the beginning. And now I use Mike Renz for everything. The other property I had, very urban park, excellent location, but this park's been here forever. And the whole city just grew around it. There was a gas station at the front of the park, apparently back decades ago. There's an underground tank that was leaking and they fixed it. But again, this is right next to the park, so we got a phase one, but thankfully the park was slightly elevated above where the gas station was at. So it did not contaminate the park. So, God, it was worried troublesome at first, but we got back to a phase one and everything was good.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. And let's shift to the banking side. So you've got, Is it 43 parks? Is that correct?
Abraham Anderson: Yes.
Frank Rolfe: Forty three parks. So as a macro whole, what percent of those 43 parks would you say roughly is seller financed?
Abraham Anderson: I would say about half is either entirely seller financed or they're carrying a seller second. And I have a bank loan in first position. Last year's, real quick, last year I bought a thousand lots and towards the end of the year I had four deals I was closing, all four of them were normal bank loans. That was in the contract, and that was the intention. Well, then interest rates doubled. I went back to every single one of them, and they all did seller financing. Two of them financed the whole thing. The other two financed a big seller second. And so I was able to buy all four of those and just by continually bringing up seller financing and then they agreed to it.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. And then what portion of that is bank financing, the entire balance? Have you had any assumptions or...
Abraham Anderson: I've not done any assumptions, so, yeah, funny enough though, I bought one park that the guy was about to default on and then the same bank did the loan that had the... The one that was about to foreclose on them. I went back to that bank and they did the loan. They didn't mind the property, they just didn't like the operator. But I've not done any assumptions yet. I have done since last year, I've done a few non-recourse refinances. And so that's definitely been interesting experience and I'm glad to have gotten that experience as well.
Frank Rolfe: So then what percent of your portfolio would be in a more sophisticated lender, like a Fannie, Freddie or a conduit lender, would you say?
Abraham Anderson: So I've got two other non-recourse refinances going on. They're closing in the next couple weeks and then I'll have, that'll be about 15 of my 43 parks will be in non-recourse loans.
Frank Rolfe: Got it. Okay.
Abraham Anderson: Yes.
Frank Rolfe: And let's talk for a minute about your management structure. So obviously it's a big pile of parks at 43. So you're at the top of the pyramid. Where does it go from there? Do you have, obviously, do you have a manager in every park? Do you have someone on site in each park?
Abraham Anderson: Either yes, or if like I have one, there's a little city that there's four parks and I've got all four of them. And I have one manager that does all four. They're like a mile from each other. So almost every park has an onsite manager or there's somebody nearby and then above them... So they're the community manager. Above them I have a district manager and his job is solely to make sure the managers are doing their job. 'Cause...
Frank Rolfe: Okay.
Abraham Anderson: I found after I got maybe a thousand lots, and I'm still talking to all these managers, I was spending all day long talking to these managers about nothing to do with the parks. And again, they're nice people, but it's just, I was spending all day talking to these guys. So I hired a district manager just to get a buffer between me and them. And that's been fantastic. I mean, I think I was able to then take off and grow even more once I made that decision to get a district manager.
Frank Rolfe: And then what do you do as far as back office? Do you do the accounting in-house? Do you have a outside bookkeeper? How do you handle the inflows and outflows of money?
Abraham Anderson: So yeah, we require everyone to pay at Walmart or online. No exceptions at all. We've never lost a tenant over it. In fact, most of them, when we tell them they can pay at Walmart, they love it. They're like, oh, that's so convenient. I go to Walmart all the time. And so that's been a great help as far as taking the managers out of the collection business. None of my managers collect any money whatsoever. And then on the rest of the accounting, like the invoices and everything, I have a CPA, we have a system where we get the invoices in, he sends them to me to be approved. I approve them and he mails it out and then he also does my taxes. So that's been, again, very helpful.
Frank Rolfe: And what are some of your biggest management challenges? If you said, what are your top three biggest hurdles? Is it, what? 'Cause obviously collections, you've found a way to get collections to not be that big a challenge. Is it selling homes? Is it water, sewer issues? What are your biggest problems?
Abraham Anderson: Getting managers that actually do their job is the hardest.
Frank Rolfe: Okay.
Abraham Anderson: The least fun part of this whole business is the management. I think someone said, you know, it's like children. Everyone wants to make the baby. No one wants to raise the baby. You know, everyone wants to buy the park. No one wants to manage the park, so...
Frank Rolfe: Right.
Abraham Anderson: I've had a lot of manager turnover recently and it's just a constant battle. And it also reminds me, this hit me the other day, you know, the Groucho Marx, the quote that, No, I don't wanna join any club that would have me as a member. Well, I almost...
Frank Rolfe: Right.
Abraham Anderson: Wouldn't want any manager that would live in a park.
Frank Rolfe: Right. No, I hear you.
Abraham Anderson: Yeah. So it's just what I feel happens, you'll even have a rockstar manager and then they've been there a while, even if they moved in the park and then they get friendly with all the residents and then now they're not wanting to...
Frank Rolfe: You're back. We lost you for a moment there.
Abraham Anderson: Okay. Should I try to switch? I can put on... I can try to switch to like my phone tethering. That may make a difference. Let me just try with this and we'll see.
Frank Rolfe: Yeah. We've been going fine.
Abraham Anderson: Okay.
Frank Rolfe: So, alright. So when you think of your best managers, you have...
Abraham Anderson: Yes.
Frank Rolfe: You know, so think about that for a minute. Where did they come from? What makes them stellar? How did you find them? What qualities do the really good managers have?
Abraham Anderson: The best manager I probably have is ex-military. And what I feel like makes a good manager is they take it personally. They feel like if this tenant did not pay rent, that it's, they're taking that personally. It's like they didn't pay them rent, you know, these, so they will personally go frequently to their house, Hey, listen, you haven't paid rent, and this constant follow ups. And they're really on top of it and it's like a team effort, you know, they're part of the team and we're doing something great. And so those are the best managers. Other managers, I had one that used to manage apartments, so she's pretty professional and knowledgeable and understands the law. And so that's been a very good manager as well. And then one of the other ones very strange. I have one manager that you would not think on the surface they would, you know, just looking at the resume or anything, they would be very good. They used to be a school bus driver, but it's a lady who is not only very good manager, very good people person, very good on the computer, but also can do repair and maintenance, which is extremely odd to find anybody that...
Frank Rolfe: Yes.
Abraham Anderson: It's hard to get one person to do one of those things good. To do all three is very unusual. So she manages about 200 lots. And so I would say a military and then former apartment managers have been the best I've found.
Frank Rolfe: And when you're looking at a deal to buy these 43, what are the most prevalent turnaround issues that you've got? Are most of these parks full and you're just raising rent or you're trying to do a lot of filling vacant lots. What kind of categories do these mostly fall into?
Abraham Anderson: Sure. So I've done very little infill. I mean, I probably have, of the 2,600, there's probably 300 vacant lots. Done very little infill except in very hot areas where you can get organic move-ins easily or in some, I'm in some areas where Clayton or other mobile home dealers will bring out spec homes and sell them out of the park. Otherwise, the way I've looked at it is, you know, I can always go back and fill those lots, but I'm not gonna always be able to find great deals from mom-and-pops. So I'd rather buy as many as I can then go back and fill these parks up later. As far as the turnarounds, the worst turnarounds are park owned home deals. I've never had a single one that wasn't very time and capital intensive because what, you'd think that these homes would have some value, but what happens is... Are you still there?
Frank Rolfe: We lost you ... your back now, I'm sorry, you've never had a deal that was not... A park owned home deal that was not very time and capital intensive and then we lost you.
Abraham Anderson: Yes. So with these park owned home deals, you'd think these homes would have value, but what it is, these tenants in these, like I had, I took over two parks. They were right next to each other, all park owned homes. It's about 130 spaces. We went to every single tenant. And these were all like 2000s nice homes who weren't just gonna give them away. Out of all those 130, only two of them were able to buy the homes with cash, or even get a loan. No one else in the park had any credit, any qualifications. And so we had to turn over every single one of the remaining 128 tenants. They would vacate, we'd have to rehab the home, then sell to somebody for cash or if they could get a loan on it. So it's just even on those parks in great markets, it's a two year project. So park owned home deals are definitely the biggest turnarounds as far as the most difficult. It takes the longest, the easiest ones are obviously the all tenant owned full park, so you just raise the rents. I wish I could do those deals all day long, but sometimes you get these heavy park owned home deals and then, yeah, it's very time intensive.
Frank Rolfe: And do you see yourself at some point trying to fill those 300 vacant lots or you just happy with those, just waiting out organic moves and things like that?
Abraham Anderson: Yeah, I've done a little bit and this year as deal flow has tightened up some, we have started doing more infill, whether it's finding used homes, bringing them in, advertising more to get organic move-ins. And also recently, started using the cash program from 21st to fill lots. We just brought in three homes yesterday in a couple different communities. So I definitely do want to fill those. It's just, again, not high in my priorities list 'cause then you're also dealing with contractors and permitting and then just the whole fund process of that goes into filling vacant lots.
Frank Rolfe: And Abraham, what percent of your time... Obviously you've got a big portfolio, How much time do you spend on... Let's break into components. How much of your time do you spend looking for new deals? If you just, your time in a given year, what percent is new deals and what percent is managing your existing stuff?
Abraham Anderson: So three days a week right now I'm marketing and trying to find new deals. And that may be visiting other areas that may be, again, just cold calling. And so that's three days a week. The other two days a week, I am focused on management, and trying to make sure every park is trending in the right direction, overseeing the district manager, 'cause you still have to make sure that's all getting done looking at reports, and so...
Frank Rolfe: We've lost Abraham. Alright, here you go. Alright, go ahead.
Abraham Anderson: Okay. So yeah, about three days a week I am prospecting for new deals, visiting new markets, talking to people. And then two days a week I am focused on management, overseeing the district manager, make sure he's doing his job, looking at reports, and things of that nature. So about three days a week, marketing, two days a week on management.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. And now let's segue over into lessons learned because obviously you gotta have a lot of lessons learned with as many parks as you have. You've been doing this for how long now? How many years have you been in the park business?
Abraham Anderson: Just in parks, again, started learning about them and looking for deals in 2018. Bought my first one in 2019, so four to five years just in parks. And then, since 2014 in real estate in general, so about nine years.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. And you started out, you went to our Boot Camp originally. Correct?
Abraham Anderson: Yes. Yes. That was January, 2019. Yep.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. So let me ask you on that front. How many lessons learned you have of things that you found different than what we had in Boot Camp?
Abraham Anderson: The only thing that I feel like I did differently from the beginning was requiring everybody to pay either with cash pay or online, but I was in every state I wasn't allowed that. So I know you guys are in some states where you have to give them other methods to pay, but otherwise, every lesson I learned from you guys, whether it's through evictions or really anything was exactly correct. Either I just listened to you guys from the beginning or I learned the difficult way. Whether it's again, like contractors using an unlicensed guy, a handyman guy to fix it, the Pro versus the Schmo. And he ends up doing more damage. And I have to get it fixed three times versus if I used the license guy, it would've been done correctly the first time. Or whether it's on evictions how to get one successfully and not getting a money judgment. So the judge gives you the eviction. Everything that I learned from you guys, I have found either from experience or just practice to be true.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. And let's break these lessons learned into category. So what are your first on deal sourcing of the deals that you've found? What have been your lessons learned on finding deals? Any big aha moments of something that you found to be important.
Abraham Anderson: On deal sourcing, I would say the biggest lessons learned are, be consistent with following up with these mom-and-pops. Again, I've bought in some parks that took me two years of following up. And when they're ready, like I try to meet them as quickly as I can 'cause some of them you just get that feeling if they're wanting to sell, but I'd kinda like to meet you first and you don't wanna go 'cause it's five hours away. I've found that meeting them in person really helps a lot. They get calls all day long, not very many people will go and visit them, and there's been properties where like, for example, I was at one guy's house, I'm sitting there with him in his home talking to him about buying the park. As I'm sitting there he gets a call from someone else cold calling him and he says, yeah, the park is not for sale.
Abraham Anderson: And he hangs up on him and then 20 minutes later we're signing a contract for me to buy it. So on deal sourcing I would say, be consistent and then try to go visit them. And then also I would say be targetive. When I first started out, I was looking within about two hours of where I lived and I just became an expert in my market. I made a list of every single park, me personally. And then I got all the owners infos, I called them all up, I visited them all and that's how I started out. And then I just started expanding it from there. So I would say those are my top things learned on deal sourcing.
Frank Rolfe: Yeah I'll throw out another one, Abraham 'cause you like I, I'm also by nature an introvert and I have kind of forced myself over all these many decades to be extroverted, but mostly just in business. In other words, I don't go around slapping people on the back at the country club. I'm just kind of a person who, I'm like, Michael Jackson, who just ... And I think you also share some of that. So I think it's important to note for people that if you don't find comfort in being more outgoing, it's okay. See, I find most moms-and-pops are also introverts by nature. I've never had a gregarious seller who is all wild and crazy with hand gestures and screaming and back slapping, most of them also kind of share that role. So I just want to point that out as well because I guess what makes you successful is a lot of people identify with you and like you because they know you're not this artificial person who just tries to be friendly with everyone, even though in the back of the mind you're thinking, oh, I hate you. You're genuinely interested in people. Right. Not from an artificial perspective. So let's change over to your lessons learned on financing you had. What have you learned in your journeys of financing?
Abraham Anderson: So by far the best financing you can get is seller financing. And that only comes from bonding with the mom and pop. And one really good tip that I've learned is if they don't wanna do seller financing, that's fine. Get the park on a contract, do your diligence, but bring it up multiple times throughout it. You may even suggest to them, Hey, maybe check with your accountant and give them a proposal on seller financing and say, see what they think is, sorry, I think it could save you some money on taxes and/or like, I've had before where I could not bridge the gap based on what I found during diligence. So I went back to the seller and I was like, I really can't pay you this all cash. I could because, there's 10 fewer homes occupied than you initially said, I could pay you this amount of cash or I could pay you the original amount if it was seller financing.
Abraham Anderson: And so that's been one way I've got a lot of seller financing was just bringing it up repeatedly. And it's kind of funny because, and then some deals I bought seller finance, say three years later I go to refinance it and they don't want me to pay them off. So once... It's not necessarily that they're opposed to it, 'cause a lot of them, when they sell the park, they're not gonna go do a 1031, they're just gonna pay taxes on it, let it sit in the bank. So it would be advantageous to them to seller finance it. It's just that they don't know you that well at first, but as you go through the diligence and everything else, they may be more open to it. As far as with normal bank financing, be friendly with your lenders as well. Don't just talk to them as the loan comes up for renewal.
Abraham Anderson: I talk to my banker probably every three months, and that may be too little but I'm calling him up we're going out to lunch, around Christmas I'll send him a gift basket or a gift card to a restaurant that he likes. So keep that relationship going. And another tip though is just have multiple lenders though. Like I have probably three primary local banks that I have deals with. And I will compete them against each other. It's just... Money's just a commodity. Some of them at times they're more hungry for properties to loan on than others and I wanna make sure I'm getting the best terms.
Frank Rolfe: Sorry, we lost signal there for a second.
Abraham Anderson: Yeah. But yeah, I just wanna make sure I'm getting the best terms. And it's one thing that a lot of people don't realize is every single term on that term sheet they give you is negotiable. The prepayment penalty, the points you pay when you buy it, the amortization, the interest rate, every single one of those is negotiable. And I've gotten in most of mine from local banks that if I refinance, for example, into non-recourse, there's no prepayment penalty. And I even had somewhere I had prepayment penalties and when I went to refinance, I just asked them and they waived it. So you can just like the sellers you can negotiate with everything on a bank loan.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. What about due diligence lessons learned? Any lessons learned on the art of due diligence on these parks?
Abraham Anderson: Definitely be consistent. I use your guy's 30 days of due diligence manual is the one time you skip something on that list, it's gonna cause you a problem, whether it's not going in all the park owned homes or you don't check every single septic tank, you're gonna miss, the one time you don't do it you're gonna have some issue. So just be consistent. And another thing that I found that's really helpful is, I get zoning letters and I have an attorney that actually does that for me. But I will still go and visit zoning and just poke around and just get their feel about, "Hey, what do you think of the park? You let any new parks come up? And what's the process of bringing a home?"
Abraham Anderson: 'Cause you'll find out really quick whether the city is neutral or hostile towards Mobile Home Parks. There was one park I was buying and I actually got a zoning letter that says, "Yep, you've got 84 lots, you've got 60 occupied. You can fill the other 24 no problem." But when I went to the city talking to the guy there, he was like, "Oh, just so you know, by the way we're about to change the zoning and you can't fill any vacant lots just so you know." And that wasn't in the zoning letter at all. So if you can't visit the city I highly recommend doing that 'cause that's one thing that I've started doing recently and I found a lot of good information from that, you would never find even if you get a zoning letter.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. And then what about on the management side? Any lessons learned on managers?
Abraham Anderson: Again, that's the hardest part for me is finding good managers and keeping them. 'Cause again, I'll have a rockstar manager and then they'll go work somewhere else 'cause they're so good at that, why would they manage Mobile Home Parks.
Frank Rolfe: Right.
Abraham Anderson: So I'm experimenting. I've recently had a couple managers turn over and I'm hiring somebody in my office to take, 'cause they're all tenant owned, totally full. There's very little that goes on. So I'm experimenting with seeing, can I just have a lot rather central management and then just have the district manager go on site every couple weeks instead of having somebody on site? But as far as managers, I would say hire slowly and fire quickly. Whenever you hire a new one...
Frank Rolfe: Go ahead.
Abraham Anderson: Whenever you hire a new manager, put them on a three month at least probationary period. 'Cause you'll know within the three months if they're gonna work out or not. It's just like a tenant where you don't really know how they are until they move in until you actually get a manager working for you, you don't really know how they are. They all seem great on paper and they're all nice until you hire them. So hire slowly, fire quickly. And if you have a park that has a lot of, like Hispanic residents, for example, try to find someone that's bilingual. 'Cause I had a park that we'd had someone that wasn't bilingual and then when they quit, we hired somebody that was and collections went up tremendously, property condition went up and it was all just that language barrier. So, yeah.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. And then what about your lessons learned on the industry in general? In other words you came in from, as somebody who owned no parks, probably had very little experience. I don't think you ever lived in a Mobile Home Park. So you came in flat cold. What have you learned about the industry itself? The entire idea of people living in Mobile Homes on a single tract of land? What have been some observations on that?
Abraham Anderson: I really believe this is a superior form of housing than apartments. People like it more. I've had a lot of people that bought homes from us, that came from apartments, and they just love it. They have more space. The rent's less expensive. They have their own yard. So the stigma that you see is definitely unwarranted, I would say in the majority of parks. And we're really the only form of unsubsidized affordable housing that's out there, which I find kind of funny. All these cities talk about how they want more affordable housing, but they hate parks. It's like totally backwards. But I would say that, it's very interesting. And these tenants they're just... Most of them are pretty normal people. They're just working class families that wanna be left alone and have a safe place to raise their kids.
Abraham Anderson: So I really do enjoy the industry as a whole. It's a lot more fun. And just as far as from the owner's perspective, there's like a brotherhood of park owners where people actually talk to each other and share tips and things like that, that you don't find in other industries. Like I was in insurance before and it was a very cutthroat, and no one likes each other. And the agents all are trying to get each other's clients. But with parks, it's way more of a friendly cooperative versus a competition. So those are some things that I really like about the industry.
Frank Rolfe: Do you feel the stigma starting to wear off? Do you think it's getting stronger? This general trailer stigma that's been hanging around for half a century now on the industry, Do you think it's, Is it starting to be lessened or do you think it's growing or what do you think?
Abraham Anderson: Unfortunately, I think it's worse in a lot of places, and at least from the government, I would say maybe normal people, it's not as bad. People are more open to the idea of living in a Mobile Home Park, but with cities, they just seem to get more and more hostile every year to Mobile Home Parks. So that's not a very fun trend. So yeah.
Frank Rolfe: Do you think that's because cities or many of the cities are trying to change their identity into more of an upscale thing. We find many cities when we buy the park, it's your typical kind of smaller town feel. And then over time, as they grow with the population, they become more lofty. And then we always know we're in trouble when the city manager was this good old boy, Randy, and he's been replaced with this new Steven, who an actual college educated city manager, you know, oh my gosh, the guy wants to come in and he says, the last thing we need is any poor people. We want nothing but high end subdivisions and shopping malls. Get that trailer park out of here. Is there any way we can get them out of here? Is that kind of what you see also?
Abraham Anderson: 100%. What you've described is almost verbatim my experience. Like there was one park, and I remember this guy's quote, so I met the guy, and this is the one where they're trying to change their ordinance and not fill vacant lots, which isn't even legal. I mean, it interferes with grandfathering, but I think they knew that. But they just know to fight them is gonna cost you a hundred grand and not many people wanna pick that fight. So I met the guy, city manager. This was a city that went from maybe 30,000 to 50,000 populations. So it was on the upswing. He tells me point blank, we've spent millions of dollars on our downtown. We wanna take the city in a different direction and Mobile Home Parks aren't part of our future.
Frank Rolfe: Yeah, I've heard that same pitch many times.
Abraham Anderson: Yes, yes.
Frank Rolfe: Right. That's just the way it works. Now, of course going back to your earlier comment on, Groucho Marx not wanting to be a member of a club that would let him in. Obviously we don't really wanna own Mobile Home Parks in towns that like them because they might allow more to be built. So with that kind of desire to keep the supply and demand in our favor, we have nothing against the hostility as long as they don't try and do anything that would damage us as an operator, which fortunately in most states, the laws are strict enough that they can't. Have you had any run-ins with cities that you've had to bring in a lawyer or someone to get what you want or need from them? Or is it mostly just been this general vibe of negativity?
Abraham Anderson: Yes. I have multiple times had to get attorneys involved. And on one of them, they were trying to stop us from filling vacant lots, but this was oddly enough, in an area you didn't need a permit to fill a vacant lot.
Frank Rolfe: Well, we lost you again. Go ahead. You said multiple times you've had attorneys involved?
Abraham Anderson: Sure. Multiple times I've had to get attorneys involved. Like on one park, they were trying to stop us from filling vacant lots, but we digged into the city code, found out you don't even need a permit to fill the lot. So we just started filling them and the city never stopped us and we got the certificates of occupancy, got the power on so that was solved. Most of the hostility I've found has been either when we try to fill vacant lots, and this would be in like a super hot market where it's very easy to fill lots, they fight you on getting the permits and all that. And the other thing I've found is on the codes violations, we'll have where the guy come out, I have one park every single week. We'll get a whole stack of violations in the mail every week, with pictures, certified mail. You've got two days to clean this up or we're gonna fine you $100 a day. And just on the tiniest little things, and this is actually a nice park. So I've definitely had to get attorneys involved and it's an ongoing battle in some municipalities.
Frank Rolfe: What's your score so far? For example, we've had to bring in attorneys probably, oh gosh, probably 10 times in the last 30 years and we've won every single one. Have you had any so far that you've lost or have you prevailed?
Abraham Anderson: All three to zero. We've won every time.
Frank Rolfe: Here we go. Way to go. Alright so let me ask you this, Abraham, what was your best day ever and your worst day ever as a park owner?
Abraham Anderson: The best day ever? I would say that the four moments I love in Mobile Home Parks. And so I have my best day ever multiple times a year, when I get a park and a contract, when I buy it, when I raise the rents and when I refinance it. Those are the four things I love in Mobile Home Parks.
Frank Rolfe: Got it.
Abraham Anderson: I remember one quick story. We bought this park, market lot rent is like 450. The guy was at 100. So we take the tenants from a 100 to 195, and the previous owner, he had an assistant and she called me up and he was saying, "Oh, the tenants they're giving Jimmy such a hard time about selling the park. One of them called him today and said, "Jimmy, you've ruined me." Which of course I mean $195, they're still getting... They're still $100 below it.
Frank Rolfe: No, I know. I know. It's ridiculous.
Abraham Anderson: I thought that was kind of funny. And of course, no one left and everyone's still there and the park looks... We've made improvements and all that. But anyhow, that was funny. The worst day I've had in parks by far, oh gosh, I got a call at 5:00 AM this is back when managers had my actual cellphone, and somehow my phone wasn't on silent, 5:00 AM get a call, multiple calls, wakes me up, manager's sobbing on the phone and says, "Abraham, there was a fire in the park and three people died." And I was like, oh my gosh. I was like, what's gonna happen now? I'm just ready to get sued and this is gonna be a nightmare.
Abraham Anderson: And I remember talking to you that morning and you said, 'Calm down. It's 90% chance it was a space heater and you're fine." And sure enough it was a space heater and instead of buying a $200 space heater that shuts off when it gets knocked over, they bought the $50 space heater that just keeps burning. They had a big dog that they shouldn't have had anyway, knocked over the space heater, caught the home on fire and they all died. And then finally the state investigated that, determined that and everything was fine. And the odd thing was this was a couple that was heavily into, suspected into dealing drugs and they were about to be evicted anyway, so it was kind of a weird coincidence that all happened. But anyhow, I had no liability.
Frank Rolfe: Yeah, I think you called me on that one Abraham and I suggested that it wouldn't turn out to be the space heater that fell on the floor, 'cause that is 99% of all Mobile Home fires all originate, as you say, from the El Cheapo 1960s space heater with just filaments in it with no shutoff that people always end up buying at like garage sales even though it'll burn their house down and kill everyone. They gotta save that $20, right. Even though dinner at Chili's was 80, but no, they don't wanna allocate the money to the space heater. So yeah, that's a pretty common deal. So Abraham, your portfolio is giant at this point. It was big back when we talked to you the first time I think you had just broken in. You were the hundredth largest operator at that moment. Your rankings now have risen to what, where are you at now, roughly?
Abraham Anderson: I'm in the top 50, I think in like from 40 to 50.
Frank Rolfe: Got it. And that number of lots, I mean just given typical lot values, your portfolio would be above $100 million in value pretty easily. So the question is, did you ever dream one day you would own $100 million Mobile Home Parks? I mean, does this not find a little freaky to you? Or what are your thoughts on that?
Abraham Anderson: I sometimes wake up and think, is this just like a dream? Like I literally would never have guessed of all the different career choices I thought about when I was younger, that I would own $100 million worth of Mobile Home Parks. So this is definitely a weird trend of events, but I love it and it's fun. And you know, it's funny though, I still, I definitely, there is still some stigma even with people. 'Cause if I'm talking to some random person and I don't really wanna get into what I do, I'll just tell them, Yeah, I'm into property management because... Yeah. I don't necessarily wanna tell them. Yeah, I manage or I own trailer parks, so.
Frank Rolfe: Right. And what does your family think of this? What do they... I'm sure early on they thought you were nuts or people now at least a little more accepting of the fact that you're a trailer park owner, or how did that work out?
Abraham Anderson: It's funny you mention it. Yeah, my family thought I was totally insane. Especially my brother who owned some real estate rentals at the time. But now I've got, you know, both my parents and I have four siblings. I've gotten both my parents into parks. I've bought a couple with my parents, since after I started we... I brought them into some deals. And then three of my four siblings have also bought Mobile Home Parks now. So we've got...
Frank Rolfe: So you've been kind of an outreach program bringing people into the industry from a far?
Abraham Anderson: Yes. And then I also, I've got seven nieces and nephews and I've got, I've tried to get them into the mindset of you should own rental properties and a business versus just working a normal job. And so I have sold five of the seven of them Mobile Homes, for like $500 when they're worth 20 grand and let them go through the process of renting it out and managing it just so they can see, oh, look how great this is versus working for 725 an hour at McDonald's. And so I've tried to be a positive influence on my family and hopefully get them in the right direction.
Frank Rolfe: Got it. And where do you see yourself going from here? Like what's the goal? Is the goal to get to number one or number 30 or what's the plan? How many lots do you envision if we get you back on here five years from now, how many lots will you be up to? Do you think?
Abraham Anderson: I always, I often will think about this and every year I'll try to plan out what I wanna do for the year. And so the two things I always come back to is I enjoy this right now. Like it's actually fun to me. So if that changes, I'll definitely reevaluate. And then the other reason why I keep going is I do feel like there's only so many mom and pops left. I mean, the average age of people I bought from is probably 75 and there's only so many of these deals left before it's all consolidated. Especially the big ones. Like trying to find hundreds plus space parks is very difficult. Even 50 plus is hard. So I think there's... And maybe this is short, maybe it's longer, but two to three years, maybe four, maybe five left before all the good deals are mostly gone. So I don't wanna miss that window of opportunity. And so I'm gonna, again until, unless I stop having fun or the deals just stop coming, I'm gonna keep buying. So, maybe 10,000. We'll see.
Frank Rolfe: Okay. Sounds good. Well, Abraham, I gotta tell you know of all the people who've gotten to bootcamp, who've called me for deals over the years, 'cause I think on many of those 43 you called me to get my opinion on 'em, which I'm more than happy to do. You're truly a memorable character 'cause you've had some of the wildest, and I mean, some of the deals you have found through so much cold calling are quite amazing. I mean, deals that just on the surface you're like, No, that seller can't be that crazy to sell you that at that price. But that's been kind of the general moral of the Abraham Anderson story to me has been just the fact, through so persistently cold calling, maybe it's your insurance background, you stick to these people and they ultimately, they like you and give you these crazy deals.
Frank Rolfe: They're so insanely profitable, one of your unique features plus the fact you're super, super affable guy and everyone likes talking to you and you've done a very good job as far as being very open with your knowledge and your thoughts with other park owners or people who wanna be park owners. So we commend you for that. And I also agree that the industry is kinda like a fellowship. I mean, you don't really, there's no one in the industry that I feel is really a competitor or a threat. They're just people and you just bounce ideas around and stories. And that's what makes the industry kind of fun. I mean, I don't know about you, but the... I was in the billboard business, it was never fun. Everyone hated each other, much like the insurance business. We all thought that if I talk to this person, what are they talking to me for?
Frank Rolfe: What's the end game? How are they gonna stab me in the back? Right? What's the ulterior motive? But this industry has always been refreshing from the start for me that I could literally go to another park owner and say, Hey, who does your home rehabs? Oh yeah, I use this guy named Larry Wilson, you wanna see some of his work? Right? And, oh yeah. And there's another guy named Tom Peters calling me. And we would never share that information in the billboard industry because like you would consider that to be proprietary stuff. And our industry is just so odd that people are willing to openly share their information. It's really crazy. Maybe that's because most park owners are the greatest generation and so they therefore just like people and like to see progress. But I don't know, that's the refreshing part of the industry is you can talk to any old park owner, you can randomly call people up and they're never mad at you.
Frank Rolfe: I know probably in all of your cold calling, you probably never had anyone who slammed down the phone said F you, because park people are pretty generally a happy good nation group. It's what I have found, it's one of the, probably the highlights of the industry is they're just generally happy people though in other industries, not so much. And I'm sure on the insurance industry, you get a lot of sour people in the pile. But I found parks owners to be pretty generally happy. And so we definitely appreciate you being a member of the Happy Fellowship of Park Owners, willing to spend some time here to give people an idea of how the industry works. And obviously, you as Dave and I started from scratch, it's not like a portfolio purchase where we're some private equity group and we go in and buy 2000 lots in one whack.
Frank Rolfe: It's been organically built. And so, obviously you've done a tremendous job. So you started with zero and have just one at a time, gritty, hardworking in the trench work to get to where you are, which is definitely admirable. But again, we appreciate you being at your lofty perch today on size, that you're still very open with people and don't mind telling them your story and honestly tell them the good things and the bad things. So we definitely appreciate that. And again, we're outta time for this Lecture Series Event, but we really appreciate you being here, spending the time, always look forward to seeing you at any industry event or anywhere we may go. And I love it when you call with your latest amazing deal that you've tied up. So it's always good. So we really appreciate you being here. Appreciate your wife for allowing you to be on here and lose time with you this evening. But again, just thanks for being there. Thanks for being a great guy and thanks for being here.
Abraham Anderson: Thank you, Frank. I appreciate it.
Frank Rolfe Thanks a lot Abraham. And that completes that for tonight everyone. But again, thanks for being here and we'll talk to everyone again real soon.